Wednesday, January 25, 2012

Injury, Risks and Long-term Damage

You won't find a neat and tidy file complete with statistics on this topic. First, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) is the authority that keeps track of this information, and that organisation generally divides children into two groups:

FULLY vaccinated ON schedule

Or not. 

Yes, that means they often group partially vaccinated, delayed vaccinated or selectively vaccinated children in with people who do not vaccinate. They also include the people who do not vaccinate incidentally, meaning they are neglectful parents who might also be starving and abusing their children.

Granted, sometimes the CDC does divide them into three groups, especially when examining outbreaks. Here is an example:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00053713.htm#top

“(13%) of the 122 non-neonatal patients with supplemental data were reported to have received at least a primary series (i.e., three or more doses) of TT before onset of illness (Table_1), including two (40%) of the five non-neonatal patients aged less than 20 years. Three (60%) of the non-neonatal patients aged less than 20 years were unvaccinated because of their parents' religious objections. The fourth case occurred in a boy aged 14 years who was bitten by a dog and who had received his last dose 2 years previously. “

The CDC is telling us right here that of the kids who were diagnosed with Tetanus, two of them were VACCINATED and three were vaccine free. ZERO died. Interestingly, supplemental data does not include any information about wound care (aka, were the parents neglectful? Did the parents take the children in to the hospital?)

Every vaccination causes immediate and long term harm. The immune system and DNA is forever altered.

What you want to know is the likelihood of a vaccine causing immediate or long term complications. This is also called an adverse reaction. What is the "lottery" for your particular child? Almost impossible to compute. Genetic differences, environmental exposure, gut health and toxin burden all play a part in determining how well the child is able to withstand the vaccination.

You can try to tease out those risks. I put together a bunch of "pro-vaccine" links on these two posts:

http://guggiedaly.blogspot.com/2010/05/way-to-ease-into-vaccine-topic.html

http://guggiedaly.blogspot.com/2010/11/what-every-parents-needs-to-read-on.html

So what are the differences? For my mama friends out there who are informed on circumcision, this surgery provides a good analogy. You know how you have a broad range of issues with circumcision?

At the point of circumcision, you have the actual trauma of the surgery (the wound that heals), then you have the later loss, which could cause additional trouble down the road such as decreased sensitivity, sexual dysfunction, keratinization, etc.

But, you also have two others parallel to that. You have at the time of surgery a risk of complications, such as hemorrhage or death. And later on, you have complications such as chordee or erectile dysfunction.

Does this make sense? There are four types of injury: two at the moment of trauma and two that occur afterwards at any point during the person's life. Two are inherent (e.g. losing nerves and veins) and two are risks (e.g. only some babies bleed to death).

Now think about that in the context of vaccination.

At the point of vaccination, you have the actual trauma of the injection, which could be a swollen arm, a warm sensation, a ball at the point of injection, etc. Then you have later loss related to the way the vaccine alters the immune system. This is largely unresearched but involves temporal immunity failing, being at risk of getting the disease as an adult, not developing adequate immune regulation (e.g. measles as a child seems to prevent skin cancer in older people).

Then, you also have the two risks. So at the point of injection, some children have severe and immediate complications such as seizing, loss of consciousness, hemorrhage/inflammation in the brain, ataxia, etc. And later on down the road there could be other risks, such as autoimmune disorders, "autistic" symptoms, brain damage, chronic infection of the disease, etc.

So it's a pretty wide spectrum for people. But in general when a person says they were vaccine injured (or circumcision injured) they are referring to the risks and not the inherent damages.

And then as you get into more informed or more on-topic discussions, such as groups of intactivists or mothers against vaccines, they begin to talk about the subtle losses involved with these body alterations.

Here's my personal example:

I experienced a vaccine complication at the point of injection. I seized, had a high fever and an anaphylactic reaction. I then had a later vaccine complication after the original complication ended. When the seizing stopped, over several months, *I* drifted away (regressed, or what would nowadays be called autism). So I experienced the inherent trauma of vaccination that everyone experiences, then I experienced an immediate and a long term complication.

So when we are discussing these topics, it's important to consider what you want to research for your child. Are you interested in learning about the immediate risks to your child? The long term risks? The inherent damage?

Ian, who later died, experienced an immediate complication.
 

40 comments:

  1. You're giving parents alot of misguided, inaccurate and potentially dangerous information here. Do you even have a medical background or immunology education? It would appear not.

    Think about how many children now suffer and die at the hands of polio, smallpox, etc. All wiped out by vaccinations. And by not vaccinating your own kid you not only put them at risk completely unnecessarily, you put other kids at risk too by turning your child into a disease vector.

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    1. I used to believe that too, Toast. Not any more! In fact, the opposite is true. It seems that those who've been vaccinated are actually the disease vectors carrying around the disease and passing it on to others.

      What I don't get is why you're so afraid of all of us unvaccinated "disease vectors" anyway? Haven't you been vaccinated? You should be immune then...right?? Or don't the vaccinations work like we're told they do? Hmmm, maybe you should do a little active studying of the subject instead of believing everything your doctor tells you.

      By the way, the decline of diseases like polio and smallpox is and always has been directly connected to good hygiene. That means appropriate sewage disposal, clean water, etc.

      Below you'll find just two articles, with documentation, that prove my point. And no, I've never had any formal education (uhem, propaganda) in the field of immunology, but I can certainly see the truth lying plainly before my eyes.

      The Decline of Childhood Disease BEFORE Vaccination: http://barbfeick.com/vaccinations/Graphs/big_decreases.htm

      Mumps outbreak spreads among people who got vaccinated against mumps: http://www.naturalnews.com/028142_mumps_vaccines.html

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    2. Actually what is misguided about this blog?

      "What you want to know is the likelihood of a vaccine causing immediate or long term complications. This is also called an adverse reaction. What is the "lottery" for your particular child? Almost impossible to compute. Genetic differences, environmental exposure, gut health and toxin burden all play a part in determining how well the child is able to withstand the vaccination."

      Very good point...

      Rather than each child being treating as in individual, they are treated as part of the collective. Nothing could be further from the truth! EVERYONE'S body and physical chemistry is different, yet vaccines which are a form of medicine is given in the same doses and schedules regardless of underlying genetic and/or environmental issues...It does not take a F$%KING doctor or grad student to figure that out! To just blindly give the same dose and medication to everyone regardless of physical size, genetic disposition and any other factors you want to figure in is medical malfeasance!

      Basically every time someone gets stuck you're rolling the dice...They KNOW that some people are genetically predisposed to have an adverse reaction. Why not test EVERYONE prior to vaccination instead of shooting people up and shrugging off a lethal or lifelong injury..."Oh well, sorry about that kid".

      Julie Gerberding, former head of the CDC admitted in a taped interview that children with a mitochondrial disorder are predisposed to developing autism from vaccines. So again...Why aren't we testing everyone for said mitochondrial disorder?!?! Imagine the revnue stream from the pharmaceutical company that develops that test...Not only will that have a constant stream from the test, but from the vaccines as well...You're welcome big pharma...I just boosted your profits!

      Off topic, but in the same vein in water flouridation. Again, everyone is being medicated through the water supply and the doses are not regulated because everyone drinks varying amounts of water so they will end up with more or less flouride in their system which is a toxin. Flouride's benefits are debatable, and if anything should only be applied topically. Would you drink suntain lotion to prevent a sunburn? No...then why would you ingest flouride to protect your teeth?

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    3. Think about how many kids actually get Polio from the very vaccine that is supposed to shield them from it...

      Yes Toast, that's right. The majority of new Polio cases reported in 3rd world nations is caused from the vaccine itself. That comes straight from the WHO!!!

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    4. While I know that the whole "social irresponsibility" thing is super effective at guilting parents into vaccinating, it is medically unethical to move forward with any medical treatment with the concerns of anyone who is not the patient. BESIDES the point that vaccines themselves can often spread the disease, either with giving kids a "mild" case or like in the case of whooping cough, where the vaccine prevents pertussis, but then you see a forty fold increase in parapertussis (which also makes whooping cough) colonized in the lungs of those who were vaccinated. But that is an aside, it should STOP exactly at, "Is this medical treatment advisable and in the best interest of THIS patient?" In Guggie's children's case, you see a family history of complications. Vaccines are the only situation where parents are encouraged to ignore family history and even previous reactions and complications as a general policy. THESE POLICIES are irresponsible, not Guggie.

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    5. While I know that the whole "social irresponsibility" thing is super effective at guilting parents into vaccinating, it is medically unethical to move forward with any medical treatment with the concerns of anyone who is not the patient. BESIDES the point that vaccines themselves can often spread the disease, either with giving kids a "mild" case or like in the case of whooping cough, where the vaccine prevents pertussis, but then you see a forty fold increase in parapertussis (which also makes whooping cough) colonized in the lungs of those who were vaccinated. But that is an aside, it should STOP exactly at, "Is this medical treatment advisable and in the best interest of THIS patient?" In Guggie's children's case, you see a family history of complications. Vaccines are the only situation where parents are encouraged to ignore family history and even previous reactions and complications as a general policy. THESE POLICIES are irresponsible, not Guggie.

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  2. Yes, yes, old hat. Blah blah I demand to see a degree over the internet. Blah, blah Polio. Blah blah Smallpox. Blah blah putting other kids at risk.

    Here's some reading material for you:

    http://guggiedaly.blogspot.com/2011/01/quick-post-about-polio-and-measles.html

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  3. Sorry, but you cant cite your own blog/opinion as evidence that your own blog is correct or credible in any way.

    Let me ask you a question to show you where your risk perception is off base. Do you drive a car? Do you take your kid in the car and are there other cars around when you do it?

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    1. My doctor used that question to try to strong arm me into giving my week old son a vitamin K shot. He was not born in a hospital and we chose not to inject him with anything. My doctor was so upset that he was allowed to develop naturally without the help of a physician. He insisted that my son needed this shot and every hour I delayed was putting him at greater risk. The risk was that a few babies are born with a blood disorder that can cause bleeding in the brain. He was even more upset when I pointed out that the risk is immediately after birth and the older the child gets the less of a risk it is. ( what I did not tell him was that my son had already had blood drawn and it was quick to clot).

      The fact is I can control my own driving, whether or not I buckle my children properly. Similarly, I can control what goes into my babies bodies. The risk I take in driving is similar to the risk I take that there are stupid drivers out there texting. I know my child might get sick. I believe it is the parent's & doctor's job to cure disease not cause more.

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    2. She didn't CITE it, she suggested that she already explained that whole thing and you can read that post for her say on all of that. Because really... why should she waste time repeating herself to you.

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  4. You seem to think I need to be credible. I posted the link for you to read. Period. :) You didn't or you wouldn't have made the mistake you just made.

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  5. I saw your link - but there is nothing in there to give you any medical credibility. You can certainly cut and paste well, I'll grant you that.

    And yes, credibility is exactly what I'm probing for - because you put yourself out as some kind of expert/resource. So I'll ask again - what education/experience do you have personally that should give anyone reason to take your opinion as a source that should be trusted as credible? Having a blog does not make you credible.

    And as we can see from the link you provided, you certainly cant interpret epidimiology data.

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    1. If you don't believe read this!

      http://vactruth.com/links/

      I used to believe the same as you. Do you see a Chiropractor? If not I highly suggest! They can also recommend sites for you to read.

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    2. If you would have taken the time to open the link you would have see she sited sources in the article... QUIT TROLLING!

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    3. Guggie, I never saw the part on your blog where you claim you are an MD. Where is that? What is he talking about? I thought we were just sharing info this whole time and I appreciate you sharing what you found. This man seems to think that you claimed to be a doctor or immunologist. And here I thought you claimed to be a blogger....

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  6. Oh ToastJenkins. It's so boring, this type of conversation. It's why I don't share my credentials. I reached milestones in the academic world for me, not to toss as a bone to someone playing with fallacies b/c they didn't get as far.

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  7. It's up to each individual to educate themselves about the dangers of vaccinations. I've researched quite a lot for the last 18 years about vaccinations since my daughter had a very bad reaction to the MMR vaccine. Sounds like Guggie Daly's done the same.

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    1. I agree! My family is of the belief that because I do not have a degree, then what do I really know? What they fail to understand is, regardless of where I went to school, research is research and where is a majority of our research done today? On-line. As I am working my way through a degree, that is all I use for study and research right now. In fact, I'm doing all of my school on-line. Credentials are important but not like they used to be. Not having credentials can be even better because instead of being brain washed to believe how the "big man" wants you to believe, you can dig and sort and find your own belief. I met a nursing student who had just written a paper for one of her classes on vaccinations. The catch was, she could only use sources such as the CDC and the likes. She was not allowed to use any source that opposed vaccination. Needless to say, she was VERY pro-vaccination. I wonder though, had she been encouraged to find credible sources on the other side of the fence, and write according to what she felt was best, would she have been so pro-vaccine then? Our nation has become so progressive and government run and it filters into our schools and daily lives and we are cattle being led to the slaughter. Each parent has to make the choice they believe is best for them but every single parent needs to be self educated and search out both sides and weigh all of the options carefully; not just do something because someone with credentials tells them they need to. Very dangerous ground we have found ourselves on.

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  8. Since my laptop likes to delete whatever I type I will keep this short and simple. The information in this article is mostly false. It is insulting and immoral. You said that you "started this blog to provide a fresh, evidence-based perspective for today's parents". Your "evidence" is not true and lacks credibility. You obviously have no medical background and didn't even research immunologic responses of the body when writing this article. You have a responsibility to the mothers who follow your blog to provide information that is true and credible. You should not post articles about issues that you have no knowledge of on your site.

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  9. Also the fact that you delete any negative criticism against you or your blog doesn't surprise me. I can provide you with accurate information on this topic if want, but I doubt you will listen to what I have to say.

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  10. I'm glad you're not surprised. It baffles me when random strangers with vague, fake names stumble across things they've probably never even considered and then get mad when their abusive, rude, unhelpful comments aren't published. I've always wondered what they expect and why. Are they abusers in real life and stunned that someone isn't a codependent? Or just that unaware of their callous behavior staring at them on the computer screen?

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  11. Wow....You completely dismissed my point in this topic. I was criticizing your sources not because I was being "abusive or rude", but for the fact that you have a lot of untrue information that you are trying to pass off as being factual. "Stumble across things they've probably never even considered" I could ask you the same thing since I am veterinary technician. Even though I specialize in animals, immunologically animals and people are just the same. I can look at the blood of both and can still identify if a left shift is regenerative or non-regenerative.
    I have no problem were you stand on vaccinations and I am fully aware of the problems that arise from them. (rabies and feline leukemia vaccinations have the chance of causing fibrosarcomas in cats) Also as a vet tech, I am the one giving the vaccines and educating ours clients why we do the things we do. In animal medicine vaccines are essential, because many of the diseases we vaccination for are still around. (Especially in the humane societies, those are death sentences to non-vaccinated dogs) Human medicine is widely different than animal medicine, a lot of diseases have been almost eliminated from developed countries. There is still a risk to not vaccinate, for example here in South Dakota a little boy was struck with meningitis. The little boy had flu like-symptoms the first day and by the second was rushed to the hospital with his life hanging by a thread. The boy did survive but he is now both blind and deaf. With each choice you make there will be consequences, the best you can do is chose the path that you believe you should do as a parent.
    There is nothing wrong with bringing attention to the dangers of vaccination, but your lack of knowledge apparent in this article. You need to research more and even consult with a doctor before write something off as fact.

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  12. A person using the name "ILuvFluffies" and claiming to be a vet tech just dismissed the CDC website as "untrue information."

    This is epic win. Epic levels of win.

    I think the post, the point of the post, the CDC link and the comments can all stand here. :D

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  13. CDC is one website that makes up a small percentage of your article, the rest of the information was not retrieved from that site. Most of the statements made in this article are your own, not from the CDC website. One website doesn't make you am expect on the subject. Insult me as much as you want, it won't make your statements true.
    You are also trying to attack my profession to try to discredit me. If you still think I am "claiming" to be a vet tech, you can check out the three hour webinar over urine that I took as part of my continuing education credits I need to keep my license.

    https://www.idexxlearningcenter.com/idexx/user_activity_info.aspx?id=1211&SSOTOKEN=0

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    1. Oh geezs... I got my "vet tech certification" for like a couple hundred bucks in a mail away program. It took less than a year or something stupid like that. Since you're all IN with the vet world, it should not surprise you to learn that vets openly admit that vaccines cause autoimmune disorders like arthritis and behavioral disorders and that most vets these days are urging people to get fewer vaccines for their animals, only getting what is important, and having blood tests done so as not to give a vaccine before it's needed. I've been to three different vets with all of my pets, and always it's the same old thing... OPEN ADMITTANCE in the HUGE risks too many vaccines have on our pets.

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  14. You seem really fixated on this one post, which does nothing but encourage readers to consider different definitions of damage, short term and long term, acute and chronic. All of your rants are off topic and related to other vaccine arguments.

    Are you just on this one post b/c it's one of the very few on my blog that shares a perspective as opposed to intense amounts of data? Or did this particular post trigger something for you?

    I haven't responded to any of the tangents you keep bringing up b/c to be honest, I'm very confused. What "statements" can't possibly be true? Are you trying to say that there is no such thing as acute damage and chronic damage from a medical procedure? Are you saying readers should not define tertiary injury at the injection site as different from long-term, casually associated disease?

    My mind is getting a bit boggled. It's almost as if you read another post and are mistakenly commenting here.

    At any rate, the disjointed discussion amuses me, so I have published your comments.

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    1. Vaccine is just like any other medical procedure. there are risks involved. it is up to the parent to make an educated, informed choice. Not to blindly trust the doctors. I cannot tell you how many times a dr. gave me a drug that he received a week before from his drug rep claiming it was safe. really? becuase the drug rep said so? i investigate every single medication before i take it (which i never actually take once i investigate). Same goes for vaccines. i researched, did not like the side effects and decided the risk of contracting the disease appears to be far less than a reaction from the shot. that is my choice. would you be this upset if someone denied chemotherapy for their children? vaccination is a medical procedure, just like others. it involves injecting a ton of toxins into a small body and not knowing the effect it will have short term, let alone long term. I will take my chances with the wild disease any day Thank you.

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  15. Its really ashamed they totally ignore the remark of "arent you vaccinated, then you have nothing to worry about?" Its totally amazing and insane. I use to think it was good to vaccinate too. Till all this came about and everyone having fears of those that are not. But excuse me. I am vaccinated will every single one under the sun. I have to renew my tetanus every 10 years? Doesn't that mean they are only temporary? So 2 of my 6 kids are not vaccinated since I have researched read every single file from the FDA and CDC. I have come to the conclusion that my youngest kids wouldn't be vaccinated.

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  16. Hi, Guggie;

    I follow you on facebook and have really appreciated the information you've shared over the years. It's exhaustive! My husband is a NUCCA chiropractor and we share our personal research with interested patients all the time.

    However, I have one concern. When people like flufflystuffing and milktoast raise objections and question your credibility and interpretation of data, it sounds like a powerful and credible objection to the layperson happening upon your site. When you respond emotionally (even though it's hard not to after responding to objections like this eight million times), THEY sound more credible than YOU, and that's damaging to the mission you're on. People on the internet who are trying to make up their minds about a topic might just decide that the detractors and critics sound more solid and go with them out of an emotional reaction.

    I'm not sure what I would do in your situation, but I do know that when you're on a mission like this, you have to kind of be indefatigable. I don't know how many times my husband has had to respond to people like this, but every time it's an exercise in patience.

    I mean this with the utmost respect and deference. I do hope you won't take offense.

    Sincerely,
    Katarina Kuhn

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    1. No offense taken at all! :) If you think fluffy sounds credible, then that's what you think. I left everything up so the reader can make her own conclusion.

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    2. I disagree, but I get what you are saying. I don't think Guggie is looking for credibility. I think she is looking to simply share info for people to do with what they want. These types aren't interested in learning more, they are on a smear campaign and this is just what they do. I applaud Guggie for wasting as little time with them as possible.

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  17. vaccination is just like any other medical procedure or medication. it has side effects and we are seeing alot more bad side effects. just like medications. they all have side effects. i love how i go to the dr. and he gives me a new drug that he received just a week prior from his drug rep telling me it is safe. really? because the drug rep says so? that is the same with vaccines. ask most doctors and they have no clue what is even in the vaccines. go on, i dare you, ask your dr. when you tell them, they usually will think you are lying. Ha. i choose to take the risk of the disease versus the risk of a reaction from a vaccine. what body can actually handle getting 3 diseases at one time? not many. so why is it okay to do that to our children? Would you also persecute a mom for denying chemotherapy for their child? it is still a medical decision and if we all make an educated informed decision which is what we do with medications, etc. including vaccines. I will take the very small risk of obtaining a wild virus versus obtaining an instant reaction or lifelong reaction anyday. like everything in life there is a risk. i just choose not to purposely inject poison into my baby. they will get enough of that just with the air we breathe.

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  18. I too am a Vet Tech as well. But as I fully vaccinate my animals, I don't fully/on schedule vaccinate my child. I know there are risks with each, but comparing animal vaccination to human vaccination is like comparing apples to oranges. Its just not the same thing at all. I routinely see many of the diseases that I vaccinate my animals for. So I know the risks of each vaccine vs. my pets aquiring the disease. And diseases that aren't as common, such as say, rabies, is zoonotic and alot of times deadly if a human contracts it.
    So for the safety of my human family (as well as my fuzzy one), as a risk assessment, is completely justified to me. The life expectancy of our pets is also far shorter. If your dog were to have a vaccine reaction that causes another condition to develop, your dog has no more responsibility to lay in the sun all day belly up and chasing squirrels. They don't need to function mentally, nor interact with other dogs as an important aspect of their life.

    The relative cost of medical bills is completely incomparable as well. As well as lifetime care of that said medical condition.

    And on another note, medically trained and established persons can still make mistakes, post inaccurate information, and complete bunk posts on whatever claim they say to have medical expertise on. Claiming that Guggie has no medical information on the topic is laughable. Because I can guarantee you, she has done more research on the topic than most general practice doctors. Do your own research on the topic and then come back and refute her post.

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  19. Just a side note to all re-pliers insisting only people with medical knowledge or degrees are credible in determining what a parent should do or put into their child...... Who funds the medical colleges and who makes up the curriculum taught at these "accredited" colleges worthy of telling us anything and we should believe with no hesitation? Well I wondered and so I researched this and found that the majority of funding is profoundly provided by Pharma and government and the curriculum is and was made by scientists who develop some of the same drugs used by Pharma (of-course)! So pharmaceutical companies, their scientists and government - who also have interest in Big Pharma - fund our medical colleges and write the curriculum........Hmmmmm so believe if you want or get smart and research for yourself or are you not credible enough to know whats best for your own child or at least search it out?????

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  20. Just a side note to all re-pliers insisting only people with medical knowledge or degrees are credible in determining what a parent should do or put into their child...... Who funds the medical colleges and who makes up the curriculum taught at these "accredited" colleges worthy of telling us anything and we should believe with no hesitation? Well I wondered and so I researched this and found that the majority of funding is profoundly provided by Pharma and government and the curriculum is and was made by scientists who develop some of the same drugs used by Pharma (of-course)! So pharmaceutical companies, their scientists and government - who also have interest in Big Pharma - fund our medical colleges and write the curriculum........Hmmmmm so believe if you want or get smart and research for yourself or are you not credible enough to know whats best for your own child or at least search it out?????

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  21. Wow....in the time it took to come up with arguments, he/she could have been researching. Good luck with that. I take it you don't have kids. Yikes.

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  22. As a RN, I have listened to medical community harp on the importance of vaccinations and have even been forced to take many I did not want. I appreciate your "common sense" take on vaccinations in combination with medical research. I have recently been exposed to the corruption of the pharmaceutical companies and how we are forcing people into poly-pharmacy for the profit of those companies. I refuse to expose myself or future children to this corruption. Thank you again for this information, some of us, take it for what it is...information for us to take and "consider".. So to those that are insulting and rude, (ie. the "vet tech" which, I got a complete laugh out of reading) they should just not read or comment on this site if they don't agree or like it. :0)

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  23. I find it fascinating that readers don't understand that you are a pundit.
    As a pundit, you have an opinion based on the facts you have collected and pundits write with authority on their subjects. The purpose of pundits is to inspire thought and research.

    No, it doesn't take degrees to know information and be extremely knowledgable. I have homeschooled for over 10 years. I do not have an education degree. In fact, until last December, I had no degree at all. However, I did tons of homework, research and snuggles. This fall, my daughter will attend college.

    Reminds me of the adage: what do you call the person who graduated last in their class at
    The Air Force Academy? Liutenant
    Law School? Esquire
    Medical School? Doctor

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  24. Wow, great job Guggle. You've brought out the trolls for the pharmaceutical drug cartel as they hurl non-sequiturs and time-wasting inane pseudo-questions. Keep up the great work, and don't let the trolls get you down or detract you from speaking the truth!

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  25. I"m almost an RN and I can tell you that the amount of time spent actually learning about vaccines, not "this is the schedule, you should follow it," but actually studying it, is next to nothing. So being in the medical field by no means makes you an authority on immunology or vaccines. I don't and will not vaccinate my children or myself. And I'm a almost a nurse. We are few and far between but there are those of us who don't believe all the crap taught in schools. My naturopath offered me a job in her office when I'm done with school too so at least I won't have to deal with all the crap I would have to deal with in a hospital :)

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